Virtualization at Work An Introduction to CHARON products

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Virtualization at Work An Introduction to CHARON products for Value Added Resellers Dogan Baser

Virtualization at Work An Introduction to CHARON products for Value Added Resellers Dogan Baser / Oct 2011 Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 1

Contents • • • DEC computers Why virtualization CHARON products overview Licensing Support VMS

Contents • • • DEC computers Why virtualization CHARON products overview Licensing Support VMS and Tru 64 transfers CHARON on VMware Clustering Benefits Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 2

IT applications are socio-technical systems Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10

IT applications are socio-technical systems Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 3

DEC computers PDP Programmable Data Processor (PDP-11: 16 bit) VAX Virtual Address e. Xtension

DEC computers PDP Programmable Data Processor (PDP-11: 16 bit) VAX Virtual Address e. Xtension (32 bit) Alpha Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA Extended VAX (64 bit) 30 -61 -023 -10 p 5

PDP-11 • • Sold by DEC between 1970 and 1997 First real time process

PDP-11 • • Sold by DEC between 1970 and 1997 First real time process control computer in the industry sold in large quantities Several bus structures: UNIbus, Qbus, Massbus Cloned several times in the Eastern Block countries • Several operating systems by DEC and others: • RSX-11: Real time process control OS with preemptive task scheduling • If somebody is still using a PDP-11 today, it is because he could not migrate he is in great difficulties – – – SM-4, SM-1420, SM-1600, Elektronika BK-0010, DVK, UKNC (Soviet Union) SM-4, SM-1420, IZOT-1016 (Bulgaria) SM-1420 (East Germany) Mera (Poland) SM-4 (Hungary) I-102 (Romenia) – DOS/BATCH, IAS, P/OS, CAPS-11, RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E, Ultrix-11 – ANDOS, MKDOS, MONECS, CSIDOS, TRIPOS, MUMPS, Unix V 7, BSD, DEMOS (Soviet Union), TSX-Plus, Rumor (ABB) Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 6

VAX, a legend • • • Introduced at October 25 th, 1977 Together with

VAX, a legend • • • Introduced at October 25 th, 1977 Together with Virtual Memory System VMS or Open. VMS First commercially available 32 bit computer First installations in Carnegie Mellon University and CERN Made DEC the #2 computer manufacturer worldwide by 1982 Nightmare of any other computer manufacturer between 1980 - 90 Shipped over 500, 000 times worldwide USA Do. D prohibited export into Eastern Block Cloned several times An entirely compatible family of computers with 100 s of models Sold until 2000 The operating system Open. VMS has outlived its host platform Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 7

Alpha AXP • Introduced in 1992, end of life in 2007 • 64 -bit

Alpha AXP • Introduced in 1992, end of life in 2007 • 64 -bit RISC processor • Open. VMS, Tru 64 UNIX, Windows NT • Gentoo Linux, Debian GNU/Linux, Slackware, Red Hat, Berkeley Software Distribution Net. BSD, Open. BSD, Free. BSD • Very large user community Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 8

DEC users, what now? • Binary translation • Native migration • Virtualization Copyright 2001

DEC users, what now? • Binary translation • Native migration • Virtualization Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 9

Binary translation • • • From VAX to ALPHA: Using OMSVA From ALPHA to

Binary translation • • • From VAX to ALPHA: Using OMSVA From ALPHA to Itanium: Using OMSAI Both delivered by Stromasys to HP, freeware Fastest and most inexpensive solution Does not need the source code However, some serious limitations apply, such as the availability of older languages on the target platform VMS only User-mode applications, only Does not allow for future enhancements on target platform VAX to Itanium needs two steps Will impact performance Not all applications are binary translatable Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 10

Native migration to a new platform • Produces native application on the target platform

Native migration to a new platform • Produces native application on the target platform • Almost every application can be migrated • Partial redesign during migration allows for replacing the programming language, middleware, user interface and design • Further development and maintenance on target platform • May give a performance boost • However, will take long to implement • Presents serious risks (time, functionality, QA, re-certification) • Source code needed Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 11

HW virtualization, the principle Applications Layered software No changes VAX/Alpha OS CHARON-VAX or -AXP

HW virtualization, the principle Applications Layered software No changes VAX/Alpha OS CHARON-VAX or -AXP VAX/Alpha hardware platform Hardware Replaced! Operating System Host computer Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 12

Virtualization • • • Does not need the source code Replaces old HW by

Virtualization • • • Does not need the source code Replaces old HW by modern HW No significant migration efforts. Upgrades immediately, quickly, simply Inexpensive No risk Reduces computer footprint, energy consumption and cooling significantly • Preserves current investments – Keeps current applications – Keeps current business processes, no impact on day-to-day operations – No re-training, no re-staffing, no re-certification • Increases performance Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 14

Virtual systems with VMware ESX (same platform virtualization) Same system architecture VM VM Same

Virtual systems with VMware ESX (same platform virtualization) Same system architecture VM VM Same system architecture In this environment, the Virtual Machines have the same architecture and instruction set as the hardware host system Virtual legacy systems with CHARON (cross-platform virtualization) Applications Layered Software In this environment, the Virtual Machines have a (very) different architecture and instruction set from the host. VAX/Alpha OS Virtual VAX / Alpha Hardware Virtualization Different System Architecture Host Computer Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -07 p 15

Inside CHARON SCSI VAX/Alpha VAX disk Memory CPU VAX Emulator System bus interface VAX/Alpha

Inside CHARON SCSI VAX/Alpha VAX disk Memory CPU VAX Emulator System bus interface VAX/Alpha VAX Console Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA Ethernet SCSI VAX/Alpha tape Disk controller Tape controller Serial ports Host system disk Virtual disk Tape image VTxxx Terminal, etc 30 -61 -023 -10 p 16

CHARON characteristics Full hardware compatibility • Tested with DEC’s diagnostics and architecture tests (AXE)

CHARON characteristics Full hardware compatibility • Tested with DEC’s diagnostics and architecture tests (AXE) Operating System independent • Runs VMS, VAXEln, Tru 64 UNIX, Ultrix, Net. BSD, etc, • All versions Easy to migrate • No VAX/Alpha binary code changes • No VAX/Alpha application source code required • No special host system or VAX/Alpha Operating System drivers Keep the benefits of current operating systems • Supports NI clustering, shared disk clustering, shadowing, striping • DECnet, Ethernet, TCP/IP, LAT… • VMS security Add the benefits of modern technologies • Lower cost of ownership • Higher performance • Smaller system footprint • Faster networking • More and faster storage, SAN, NAS • Hardware independency (upgradeable/replaceable host) • Multiple virtual systems on one host, simple server consolidation Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 17

CHARON-VAX history • Design start: April 1999 • First VMS logon: March 2000 •

CHARON-VAX history • Design start: April 1999 • First VMS logon: March 2000 • First customer shipment in September 2000, 10 VUPS • High-end product : June 2002, 50+ VUPS • Shared disk clustering: August 2004 • SMP VAX emulators : Sept 2004, 250+ VUPS • VAX 6660 emulator : Sept 2005, 900+ VUPS • Can replace any VAX or VAX cluster ever built • Lightweight and portable – Developed 100% in C++ Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 18

CHARON-AXP history • Announced and shipping since 2006 • Benefiting from CHARON brand name

CHARON-AXP history • Announced and shipping since 2006 • Benefiting from CHARON brand name and established confidence in the market • Sales volumes increasing much faster than CHARON-VAX Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 19

CHARON products overview • Alpha virtualizations CHARON-AXP/SMA, CHARON-AXP/SMA+, CHARON-AXPstation CHARON-AXP/3000, /4100, /DS 10, /DS

CHARON products overview • Alpha virtualizations CHARON-AXP/SMA, CHARON-AXP/SMA+, CHARON-AXPstation CHARON-AXP/3000, /4100, /DS 10, /DS 20, /ES 40, /GS 80, /GS 160 • Low- to mid-range VAX virtualizations CHARON-VAX/XM/XL/XK • High-end VAX virtualizations CHARON-VAX/66 x 0 • Real-time or embedded VAX and PDP-11 virtualization CHARON-TB Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 20

CHARON-AXP products CHARON-AXP product Alpha hardware model replaced Platform (64 bit) CHARON-AXP/SMA Alpha. Server

CHARON-AXP products CHARON-AXP product Alpha hardware model replaced Platform (64 bit) CHARON-AXP/SMA Alpha. Server 2100/300, 2000/275, 1000/266 DEC 3000/800, 3000/600, 3000/400 Windows Server 2003 , 2008 -R 2, 7, XP VMware v. Sphere 4. 1 (ESXi 4. 1 update 1) CHARON-AXP/SMA+ Alpha. Server 800, 1200, 4000, 4100, DMCC/Flexor Alpha. Station 500, 600, DPW, XP 900, XP 1000 Windows, VMware CHARON-AXP/4100 Alpha. Server 400, 800, 1000(A) , 1200, 2000, 2100, 4000 or 4100 Windows, VMware, Fedora Core 14, Red Hat Enterprise 6 CHARON-AXP/DS 10 Alpha. Server DS 10, Alpha. Server DS 15 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXP/DS 20 Alpha. Server DS 20, DS 25 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXP/ES 40 Alpha. Server ES 40 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXP/GS 80 Alpha. Server GS 80, ES 80 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXP/GS 160 Alpha. Server GS 160, GS 80 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXP/GS 320 Alpha. Server GS 320, GS 1280 Windows, VMware, Linux CHARON-AXPstation Alpha. Station 200, 255 Windows, VMware Personal. Alpha Concept demo, free, not for commercial use Windows, 32 and 64 bit NCE products Concept demo, free, not for commercial use Windows, VMware. Linux Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 21

Feature overview CHARON-AXP/ Virtualized hardware Number of Alpha CPU’s in base license Additional Alpha

Feature overview CHARON-AXP/ Virtualized hardware Number of Alpha CPU’s in base license Additional Alpha CPU’s Maximum number of Alpha CPU’s supported Maximum supported Alpha memory SMA(+) 4100 DS 10 DS 20 ES 40 GS 80 GS 160 1 2 1 1 2 4 8 No (Yes) Yes No Yes Yes 1 (4) 2/4 1 2 4 8 16 32 GB 64 GB 128 GB 8 (16) GB 2 / 32 GB Ethernet (DE 435, DE 450, DE 500) support Yes Yes (2 fixed) Yes Yes SCSI adapter (KZPBA) support Yes Yes (2 fixed) Yes (1 fixed) Fibre. Channel adapter (KGPSA) support 1) Bypass Yes Yes Yes Maximum number of adapters supported (Ethernet, SCSI and Fibre. Channel) 20 3 -17 6 8 10 28 28 IDE support No No Yes Yes Yes FDDI support No Yes Yes Yes 6. 1 (6. 21 h 3) 6. 2 -1 h 3 7. 1 -2 7. 2 -1 h 1 3. 2 (4. 0 B) 3. 2 C 4. 0 F 4. 0 G Earliest Open. VMS version Earliest Tru 64 version Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 22

CHARON-VAX products (x 86) Product Platform , 32 or 64 bit VMS Memory May

CHARON-VAX products (x 86) Product Platform , 32 or 64 bit VMS Memory May replace CHARON-VAX/XM • Windows Server 2003 , 2008 -R 2, 7, XP • VMware v. Sphere 4. 1 (ESXi 4. 1 update 1) • Fedora Core 14, Red Hat Enterprise 6 4. 5 (*) 128 MB VAX-11, /xxx, µVAX I, II, 2000, 3300, 3400, 3500, 3600, 3800, 3900, 3100 -85, VAXstation I, II, 8 xxx, 2000, 3100 -38, 48, 76, 4000 -30, 60, 200, 300, 400, VAX 3100 -10, 20, 30, 40, 6000 -210, 310, 410 -430, 510, 520 CHARON-VAX/XM Plus Windows, VMware, Linux 4. 5 (*) 128 MB µVAX 3100 -90, 95, 96, 98 VAX 4000 -100, 105, 500, 600, 705, VAXstation 4000 models 90, 96. 98 VAX 6000, models 440 -460, 530 -560 CHARON-VAX/XK Plus Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 256 MB like XM+ with large memory CHARON-VAX/XL Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 512 MB like XM with large memory CHARON-VAX/XL Plus Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 512 MB like XM+ with large memory CHARON-VAX/6610 + Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 1 GB Large SMP VAXes with single CPU (6000, 7000, 9000, 10000) CHARON-VAX/6620 + Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 2 GB with 2 CPUs CHARON-VAX/6630 + Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 2 GB (**) with 3 CPUs CHARON-VAX/6660 + Windows, VMware, Linux 5. 5 -2 2 GB (**) Up to maximum # of CPUs CHARON-TB Windows 4. 5 (*) 512 MB (*) Memory size depends on the CPU emulated Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA (*) (*) Like XM, for VAXes with non-standard HW (**) 3 GB memory on 64 bit Windows 30 -61 -023 -10 p 23

CHARON-VAX on Open. VMS IPF Product Platform Earliest VMS version supported Emulated Memory Size

CHARON-VAX on Open. VMS IPF Product Platform Earliest VMS version supported Emulated Memory Size May replace CHARON-VAX/3198 for Open. VMS Integrity Open. VMS V 8. 3 -1 H 1 or higher 5. 5 -2 h 4 512 MB VAX 3100 -80, -85, -90, -95, -96, -98 VAX 4000 -96, -98 CHARON-VAX/4705 for Open. VMS Integrity Open. VMS V 8. 3 -1 H 1 5. 5 -2 h 4 512 MB VAX 4000 CHARON-VAX/6610 Plus for Open. VMS Integrity Open. VMS V 8. 3 -1 H 1 5. 5 -2 h 4 1 GB Large SMP VAXes with single CPU CHARON-VAX/6620 Plus for Open. VMS Integrity Open. VMS V 8. 3 -1 H 1 5. 5 -2 h 4 3 GB Large SMP VAXes with two CPUs CHARON-VAX/6630 Plus for Open. VMS Integrity Open. VMS V 8. 3 -1 H 1 5. 5 -2 h 4 3 GB Large SMP VAXes with three CPUs Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA -300 , -400, -500, -600, -705 30 -61 -023 -10 p 24

Which CHARON-VAX to Use ? Decision factors: • Platform • VMS version to run

Which CHARON-VAX to Use ? Decision factors: • Platform • VMS version to run • Memory size need • Performance need Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 25

CHARON licensing INDIVIDUAL License • A single instance of a product on one host

CHARON licensing INDIVIDUAL License • A single instance of a product on one host system MULTI-INSTANCE License • • • One or multiple instances of a product on one host system The host must provide sufficient resources (= CPU cores, memory, NW cards) for the total of all instances, plus Windows All instances of a given product will have the same license characteristics (= expiration date, number of CPUs and RAM) NETWORK License • One or multiple instances of a product on multiple hosts in a network For all license types • • Unlimited license, or Yearly license Price ratios: Unlimited : Initial year : Extensions = 100% : 40% Mix of CHARON-VAX and AXP products possible with HASP license keys Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 26

Support • CHARON product support – From Stromasys or a Stromasys-certified support organization (SDO)

Support • CHARON product support – From Stromasys or a Stromasys-certified support organization (SDO) – GOLD Support: 5 days / 8 hours – PLATINUM Support: 7 days / 24 hours* • VMS and Layered Products support – From HP, as usual – • Tru 64 and Layered Products support – From HP, as usual – • http: //h 71000. www 7. hp. com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator. html http: //h 30097. www 3. hp. com/stromasys-alpha-emulator-sw. html Oracle support – From Oracle Corp, as usual – http: //www. oracle. com/technetwork/database/rdb/charon-vax-097107. html * Subject to geographical availability Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 27

HP’s VMS and Tru 64 transfers Right to transfer Open. VMS or Tru 64

HP’s VMS and Tru 64 transfers Right to transfer Open. VMS or Tru 64 to the Virtual Alpha • Operating system • All supported layered products • Now available through Stromasys For Open. VMS http: //h 71000. www 7. hp. com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator. html For Tru 64 http: //h 30097. www 3. hp. com/stromasys-alpha-emulatorsw. html Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 28

Oracle transfers • No consistent worldwide treatment by Oracle • Price on VAX and

Oracle transfers • No consistent worldwide treatment by Oracle • Price on VAX and Alpha = f (# of CPUs) • Price on CHARON = – Best case: f (# of Virtual CPUs) – Worst case: f (# of host CPU cores) Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 29

Oracle transfers • No consistent worldwide treatment by Oracle • Price on VAX and

Oracle transfers • No consistent worldwide treatment by Oracle • Price on VAX and Alpha = f (# of CPUs) • Price on CHARON = – Best case: f (# of Virtual CPUs) – Oracle LMS rule: f (# of host CPU cores * CPLF ) • CPLF = Core Processor Licensing Factor http: //www. oracle. com/jp/direct/processor-core-factor-table-jp-168076 -ja. pdf#search="/processor-core-factor-table" Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 30

CHARON on VMware ESXi • Why two virtualization layers? – Market requirement for VMware

CHARON on VMware ESXi • Why two virtualization layers? – Market requirement for VMware support – May help fulfilling some corporate data center policy requirements – Allows mixing Windows or Linux CHARON with other operating systems on the same multi-core host • However, there is a performance price • Restrictions apply with v. Motion • If non of the above is required, then please use the multi -instance license feature of CHARON ! Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 31

VMS clustering • NI clusters – Always possible, mixed or pure • Shared Disk

VMS clustering • NI clusters – Always possible, mixed or pure • Shared Disk Clustering, prerequisites – Ethernet connection for the Lock Manager traffic – Concurrent accessibility of the storage device – Identical device designation for the storage device in all nodes Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 32

Tru 64 clustering • Tru 64 V 4. X and V 5. X –

Tru 64 clustering • Tru 64 V 4. X and V 5. X – Ethernet connection – Concurrent access of shared SCSI disks • Tru 64 V 4. X – Production Server (Memory Channel) Clusters currently not supported • Tru 64 V 5. X – Shared SCSI disks must have identical WWIDs on all nodes – Memory Channel Interconnect must be replaced with Ethernet Interconnect, which requires V 5. 1 A Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 33

Why virtualization • Hardware is end-of-life • Service costs have increased significantly • Operational

Why virtualization • Hardware is end-of-life • Service costs have increased significantly • Operational costs (e. g. energy consumption, footprint) are excessive • Application rewriting and re-certification may be expensive & risky • Experts and/or application source code not always available • Automatic binary conversion to Open. VMS/IPF does not always work • Market expects modern platforms • Higher performance needs • Tru 64 Unix Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 34

Benefits • Replace old and expensive HW by modern HW • Significantly reduce cost

Benefits • Replace old and expensive HW by modern HW • Significantly reduce cost of ownership • Preserve current investments – Keep current applications – Keep current business processes, no impact on day-to day operations – No re-training, no re-staffing, no re-certification • Extend on new platforms, create room for future growth • Become HW independent • Increase performance • Scalable size and licensing conditions in line with client’s needs • Upgrade immediately, quickly, simply • Reduce space needs significantly Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 35

Some CHARON-VAX users • BT, US Dept. of Defense (Pentagon), many Navies, Air Forces

Some CHARON-VAX users • BT, US Dept. of Defense (Pentagon), many Navies, Air Forces and Armies, Contraves, Dresdner Bank, Bosch, CMC Electronics, GAFSA, Bank Morval, Ferrero, Ishida, Brittany Ferries, Robotek, Stahlwerk Bous, Alcatel, Lexmark, many hospitals in USA and Australia, many counties in USA, EDF, Warner Robbins, Ship Analytics, Vattenfall, Dow Chemical, Bell Group, Janssen Pharmaceutica, Pro. Quest Allison, many universities, AKZO Nobel, General Dynamics, Rolls Royce, GE, P&R, Vodaphone, Philip Morris, Philips, Jaguar, Opel, British Energy, Elvia, Teijin Dupont, Optus, IASCO, NAMSA, Corus steel, Samsung, Toshiba, ABB, Raytheon, HP, EST Enerji, Nortel, Scania, VEBA, BREGA, Swedish Steel, Barco, Oracle, Agfa, Northrop Grumman, TRW, Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, Voestalpine, Medisuisse, Migros PK, Spida, Vibro-Meter, Milano Railways, SBB/CFF, Hitachi, Nikon, Fujitsu, HSBC, EDS, Thales, Nokia, EADS, Ferrari, Ford, Fidelity … and many others Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 36

Some CHARON-AXP users Europe ü Arma Suisse ü BCC ü BP ü Bundeswehr ü

Some CHARON-AXP users Europe ü Arma Suisse ü BCC ü BP ü Bundeswehr ü Commerzbank ü Degremont ü Eurofighter ü European Space Agency ü Fugro UK ü Huntsmann Chemicals ü Gallimard France ü Glaxo. Smith. Kline Italy ü Kirchenrat Stuttgart ü Metalli Italy ü Oto Melara ü Philips Medical Systems ü Police Netherlands ü RAF UK ü Stockholm Public Transport ü Urano Germany Global ü Nikon Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA Americas ü ACSSD ü Brooks Automation ü Bureau of Census ü Cargill ü Catalyst Paper ü Caterpillar ü Cedar Rapids Corn Mill ü Central de Valores Chili ü City of Oklahoma ü Fedex ü General Dynamics ü ITT ü Jefferson Parish Sherriff ü New Brunswick Power ü OSPI ü Penton ü RL Polk ü South Central Power Australia/New Zealand ü ABC ü St. Vincents Hospitals ü Workcover ü Wyeth Pharmaceuticals 30 -61 -023 -10 p 37

For more information Stromasys SA www. stromasys. com P. O. Box 156 Product descriptions

For more information Stromasys SA www. stromasys. com P. O. Box 156 Product descriptions 1228 Plan-les-Ouates Application notes Switzerland Documentation Tel. +41 22 794 1070 Utility downloads Fax +41 22 794 1073 Partner pages info@stromasys. com Copyright 2001 -2011 Stromasys SA 30 -61 -023 -10 p 38